36 replies to this topic

[temba]

Why the darkness?

When Jesus died, it was in the middle of the afternoon. But darkness came over the earth for 3 hours! Why do you thing God allowed darkness at that moment?

[Life]

I think the Light (Jesus Christ) had been taken out of the world (by his death), and was operating in another place, I suppose Hell (acts 2:31) where he made a public show of the devil (col 2:15).

[temba]

For every bible question, there is a bible answer. So for us to get the answer on why it became dark when Jesus was crucified, we have to check what the adumbration (which is the Old Testament) showed. This is because the Old Testament is a shadow and type of good things to come in the New Testament as depicted by the following scriptures:

Col.2:[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb.8: [5] Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb.10:[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

When we study the shadows cast by the histories in the Old Testament, we are able to know what to look for in the future antitypes. E.g. a shadow cast by an elephant gives us some idea on what the positive (or the elephant) will look like. The shadow becomes more distinct, the nearer the elephant approaches.

Scriptural adumbrations follow this same example. For instance, the first Adam was the spoken Word of God manifest in created flesh. He did not sin, and of his own free choice laid down his life to save his wife. The second Adam (Jesus Christ) was the Word manifest in virgin-born flesh. He was without sin also, and freely chose to lay down His life to redeem His wife --the true Church.

Therefore, the natural types the Spiritual. To understand the Bible, these shadows and types must run true throughout scripture. Here is how scripture views Jesus along this line of thought:

1Cor.5: [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Pet.1:[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

So, Jesus was the Lamb of sacrifice. Now, looking back in the adumbration, we read the following:

Exod.12: [3] Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: [4] And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. [5] Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: [6] And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Throughout the Old Testament, every Passover sacrifice had to be killed in the evening. So when Jesus died, God had to go to great pains to create “evening” so as to fulfil the statement “shall kill it in the evening”!

That’s why God allowed darkness at the moment Jesus died!

[Life]

Thanx for the revelation.
and for sure it had to be in the evening.
I love the point that he CREATED the evening for that convenience.

[Diaspora hazvisi]

So God created darkness when Jesus died. So how does this fit in with your different offices of God that you adhere to so vehemently. Which office did what when the other office was doing something. Lol

[Pendu]

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, he did not die for himself. He was standing in as a substitute for certain people. He suffered on their stead(For their sins specifically). The sins of these people were imputed/put on Christ's person.
Christ suffered the severe full wrath of the Father for our sins which were poured upon him. Our Father, because he hates sin, saw our sins and abominations on His Son Jesus, and for some time had to leave Jesus alone, causing darkness upon the earth. Jesus even cried out aloud:  (Mark 15:36) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
For the face of God had left him at that very time.
The usual time for sacrifices in the Old Testament was around 3pm, and about the same time Jesus was sacrificed.



Glory be to God Alone

[temba]

Diaspora hazvisi, on 23 February 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

So God created darkness when Jesus died. So how does this fit in with your different offices of God that you adhere to so vehemently. Which office did what when the other office was doing something. Lol

All you have to do my dear is tell me how many Gods you think exist according to the following scripture? Maybe your mind may open up a bit!

Rev.4:[5] And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

[Diaspora hazvisi]

Now go further and read Rev 5 v1-10 and explain go me the offices of God

[Will B. Free]

Pendu, on 24 February 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, he did not die for himself. He was standing in as a substitute for certain people. He suffered on their stead(For their sins specifically). The sins of these people were imputed/put on Christ's person.
Christ suffered the severe full wrath of the Father for our sins which were poured upon him. Our Father, because he hates sin, saw our sins and abominations on His Son Jesus, and for some time had to leave Jesus alone, causing darkness upon the earth. Jesus even cried out aloud:  (Mark 15:36) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
For the face of God had left him at that very time.
The usual time for sacrifices in the Old Testament was around 3pm, and about the same time Jesus was sacrificed.



Glory be to God Alone

So who died on the cross ''Jesus the God'' or Jesus the human? Think carefully before answering because God does not die.

[Pendu]

Ruwi Vhitori, on 25 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

So who died on the cross ''Jesus the God'' or Jesus the human? Think carefully before answering because God does not die.

Who do you(Ruwi Vhitori) think died on the cross?

[Will B. Free]

Pendu, on 26 February 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Who do you(Ruwi Vhitori) think died on the cross?

From a Christian perspective it is Jesus the God who died.
Once a human dies he would not rise again. But God does not die.
Please read Deuteronomy 12:30-31, what God says on human sacrifice.

[temba]

Diaspora hazvisi, on 25 February 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Now go further and read Rev 5 v1-10 and explain go me the offices of God

I asked you a question and instead of answering the question, you answer by a question! Don't you see it as a way to confuse the dialogue?

I think it's better to answer the question and then ask me the question you want answered. That way we might be able to travel on the same Christian road.

[Pendu]

Ruwi Vhitori, on 26 February 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

From a Christian perspective it is Jesus the God who died.
Once a human dies he would not rise again. But God does not die.
Please read Deuteronomy 12:30-31, what God says on human sacrifice.

Jesus of Nazareth is really and truly God as well as really and truly human. He is the only
descendant of Adam with two natures, human and divine. These two natures are continually without
confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Scripture rejects the lie
that Jesus Christ was merely human and not fully divine. It likewise rejects the lie that Jesus
Christ was a supernatural being but not fully human.

So when Jesus died, he died as both fully human and fully divine, and when God rose him from the dead, he rose as fully human and fully divine.
Now Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father as a full human being and a full divine being.

[Will B. Free]

Pendu, on 27 February 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Jesus of Nazareth is really and truly God as well as really and truly human. He is the only
descendant of Adam with two natures, human and divine. These two natures are continually without
confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Scripture rejects the lie
that Jesus Christ was merely human and not fully divine. It likewise rejects the lie that Jesus
Christ was a supernatural being but not fully human.

So when Jesus died, he died as both fully human and fully divine, and when God rose him from the dead, he rose as fully human and fully divine.
Now Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father as a full human being and a full divine being.

SO YOU ARE SAYING GOD DIED AND GOD ROSE HIM FROM THE DEAD? AND THERE IS STILL ONE GOD?
Trinity doctrine stretched to breaking point......

[Pendu]

Ruwi Vhitori, on 27 February 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

SO YOU ARE SAYING GOD DIED AND GOD ROSE HIM FROM THE DEAD? AND THERE IS STILL ONE GOD?
Trinity doctrine stretched to breaking point......

There never was more than One God. There was One God. There is the same  One God. And there will be the same  One God to ertenity.
Scripture does not teach the existence of more than One God, nor one person manifesting himself in different ways, but that there is One God EXISTING in three different persons.
They are NOT three gods.  It is One God in three persons.The Son is eternally begotten by the Father, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

No wonder Paul says  "without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles". 1Tim 3:16

[temba]

Pendu, on 27 February 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

There never was more than One God. There was One God. There is the same  One God. And there will be the same  One God to ertenity.
Scripture does not teach the existence of more than One God, nor one person manifesting himself in different ways, but that there is One God EXISTING in three different persons.
They are NOT three gods.  It is One God in three persons.The Son is eternally begotten by the Father, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

No wonder Paul says  "without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles". 1Tim 3:16

Pendu, where is the scripture that gives you confidence in saying what I highlighted in red? The scripture you just gave has told you that God "manifest in", and you turn arround and say "nor one person manifesting himself in different ways".

You yourself have just quoted the scripture thats telling you that He (God) manifests Himself in 3, but then you turn arround to deny it! Try and think it through and you will understand what I am trying to make you see.

[Pendu]

temba, on 27 February 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Pendu, where is the scripture that gives you confidence in saying what I highlighted in red? The scripture you just gave has told you that God "manifest in", and you turn arround and say "nor one person manifesting himself in different ways".

I am saying it is One God existing in three persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not “offices” as some people think. These are seperately identifiable. And these share the same Godhead equally. So many scriptures attest to that, but for the sake of easiness of reference let us briefly look at the Book of Revelation only:
Revelation 4:2
4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Undisputably, it is the Father who sat on the throne.
On the same occasion, the Son is presented before the Father: Revelation 5:6
5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And this Lamb said, on  Revelation 1:8
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And refering to the Father the four living creatures said, on Revelation 4:
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The foregoing  affirm that the Father and the Son exist as God Almighty.

temba, on 27 February 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

You yourself have just quoted the scripture thats telling you that He (God) manifests Himself in 3, but then you turn arround to deny it! Try and think it through and you will understand what I am trying to make you see.

What I deny is the existence of three gods

[Will B. Free]

Pendu, on 28 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

I am saying it is One God existing in three persons. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not “offices” as some people think. These are seperately identifiable. And these share the same Godhead equally. So many scriptures attest to that, but for the sake of easiness of reference let us briefly look at the Book of Revelation only:
Revelation 4:2
4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Undisputably, it is the Father who sat on the throne.
On the same occasion, the Son is presented before the Father: Revelation 5:6
5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And this Lamb said, on  Revelation 1:8
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And refering to the Father the four living creatures said, on Revelation 4:
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

The foregoing  affirm that the Father and the Son exist as God Almighty.



What I deny is the existence of three gods

So when Jesus died on the cross, for the next three days the Trinity was a duo?
Am not getting you Pendu but thank you for trying to assist.

Temba whats your take, ''Who died on the cross, Jesus the God or the human''?

[Will B. Free]

MaKiristu epano please help me here.
If I believe that God is one, Jesus is his son but not equal to God, and the Holy Spirit is also
lesser than God....have I disobeyed any biblical law?

This will answer my question of Who died on the cross..it was Jesus the son of God until his Father in heaven
rose him from the dead.

[temba]

Ruwi Vhitori, on 28 February 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

So when Jesus died on the cross, for the next three days the Trinity was a duo?
Am not getting you Pendu but thank you for trying to assist.

Temba whats your take, ''Who died on the cross, Jesus the God or the human''?

The thing that people cannot understand is that God prepared Himself a Body for Him to be able to interact with the human creation He had made. That Body is called Jesus. When this body was in its infancy, It was not the fulness of God! It was the Word of God MADE Flesh, with the potential of becoming the fulness of the Godhead bodily. In this stage of infancy, This Body surprised many a learned men due to Its depth of knowledge (both in scriptural matters as well as social matters). This was because It was The Word --and we  On maturity, It became the fulness of God --in other words It reached Its full potential of being the fulness of the Godhead.

That Body had ALL the qualities you find in humans. The difference being that It was the manifestation of the spoken Word of God. There was no trace of earthily man in that Body. It was pure spoken Word in flesh! It was God's Word made material, right from His Mouth. No wonder Jesus said that He proceeded from the mouth of God. That body is called the Son. One could easily call that Body the Sonship Office. An Office where God could express His "The Son" attributes in materialized Word form --Jesus! And that Sonship had a beginning, but Its beginning was borne out of the materialization of the attributes (or call it Thoughts) of God.

Now, God is a Spirit. He cannot be seen by a naked eye. But Jesus was the materialization of that Spirit in Flesh form via the Spoken Word. Then, the invisible Spirit dwelt in that Body called Jesus. So That Body was the only way natural man could have physical contact with the Spirit. But, the Spirit could lift off from the materialized body, leaving It on Its own. That would leave the Body with Its Human nature, making decisions in that capacity. No wonder It once contemplated to have the cross pass over --because the Human part had to make that decision as a mere Man.

So to ansswer your question. The materialized form of God (called Jesus) died on the cross. The Spirit did not die!