36 replies to this topic

[temba]

Pendu, on 28 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

I am saying it is One God existing in three persons.

All I need you to do my friend is to provide scripture that makes you say this!

Pendu, on 28 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not “offices” as some people think.

"Offices" is just but a phrase that is meant to describe the 3 major ways that God MANIFESTS Himself. Its just mere phrasology!

Pendu, on 28 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

These are seperately identifiable. And these share the same Godhead equally.

That sounds correct if one puts on a denominational cap!

But scripturally, its an absurd suggestion! If there are 3 seperate persons (as you say), that would mean that when Jesus was send to earth, only two were left in heaven. So the Godhead was two thirds in heaven and one third on the cross! Also, it would look unfair --why would the other two persons gang up on Jesus to go and die?! Why didn't they all come and die? Infact it would mean Jesus would be the lesser of the 3 because He even prayed to the other two!

I hope you can see that your case makes the likes of nabu rub their hands together --ready to devour you in an endless, illogical debate!

[Pendu]

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

All I need you to do my friend is to provide scripture that makes you say this!

The scriptures I gave are enough to show you that Jesus (the Son) is God and the Father is God. Infact Jesus was in the beginning with God the Father, and he was God. John 1 attests to that.

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

"Offices" is just but a phrase that is meant to describe the 3 major ways that God MANIFESTS Himself. Its just mere phrasology!

Since "offices" is just 'phrasology' so too is 'One God exists in three persons' is 'phrasology'.

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

That sounds correct if one puts on a denominational cap!

I do not know what 'a denominational cap' is.

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

But scripturally, its an absurd suggestion! If there are 3 seperate persons (as you say), that would mean that when Jesus was send to earth, only two were left in heaven. So the Godhead was two thirds in heaven and one third on the cross!

What would be absurd about that?

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Also, it would look unfair --why would the other two persons gang up on Jesus to go and die?!

Unfair to who? Would it look 'fair' for Jesus to die for sins he never committed? Would it be 'fair' if a man pays a ransom for a neighbour to avert the neigbour's death?

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Why didn't they all come and die? Infact it would mean Jesus would be the lesser of the 3 because He even prayed to the other two!

From the foundation of the world God planned that Jesus was to die for the world. This is what was planned for from the beginning. Would it matter to you so much if the Son were lesser than the Father and the Holy Spirit?And Jesus prayed to the Father.

temba, on 01 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

I hope you can see that your case makes the likes of nabu rub their hands together --ready to devour you in an endless, illogical debate!

I am not raising any case here. I am just perpetuating what the scriptures say. If anybody thinks this is illogical, it is him that is being illogical.

[temba]

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

The scriptures I gave are enough to show you that Jesus (the Son) is God and the Father is God. Infact Jesus was in the beginning with God the Father, and he was God. John 1 attests to that.

Okay, let me address the scriptures that you gave so that I can easily show you that your points are full of assumptions! Very few concrete points.

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

And these share the same Godhead equally. So many scriptures attest to that,

The fact that you keep addressing them as "these" tells me that you believe in 3 Gods, though you try and squeeze them into one somehow. Simple questions like:
--How many gods would Jesus make when He is standing on His own?
--How many gods does the Holy Ghost represent, when on His own?
--How many gods does the Father represent, when on His own?

The answer to those three questions should be able to show you that you do have poly-gods in this doctrine you are presenting. Its so simple, but if you choose not to think prayerfully, then there is no hope for any revelatory light at the end of the tunnel!

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

but for the sake of easiness of reference let us briefly look at the Book of Revelation only:
Revelation 4:2
4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Undisputably, it is the Father who sat on the throne.

The use of the word "Undisputably" usually works to the gullible. It does not work to the enlightened people! No where in the above scripture does it suggest that the "ONE" is the Father. Its your own assumption! To make matters worse, if your 3 persons do exist, that would mean the other two can not sit on that throne --possibly to you they sit on the side of the throne! I hope you can see the absurdity I was talking about.

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

On the same occasion, the Son is presented before the Father: Revelation 5:6
5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Imagine? This "midst of the throne" is where you have just told us that the Father is sitting as per the scripture you have given above. Now it looks like there is the lamb on that same throne. No wonder some people end up saying "christians" are a cofused bunch!

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

And this Lamb said, on  Revelation 1:8
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

So, this lamb said this when he was standing on the throne, where the father was sitting? Mashura chaiwo aya! On top of that the lamb claims to be "the Almighty"! And then at the bottom of my message here, you are going to tell us that the father is the Almighty being worshiped by the elders!

May the Lord have messy on us all!

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

And refering to the Father the four living creatures said, on Revelation 4:
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

What makes you say they referred to the father? This is another assumption, of which you do not have scripture to supoort it. For instance, the father is sitting on the throne where the son is standing. So these elders are facing 2 on that throne, what makes you think they are talking to the father? And by the way, where is the 3rd one of this trinity?

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

The foregoing  affirm that the Father and the Son exist as God Almighty.

Ndokunonzi kubika mbodza uku! I wonder how many gods you see from the following two scriptures:

Revelation 3:l, "These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God , and the seven stars."

Revelation 4:5, "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices; and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven Spirits of God."

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

What I deny is the existence of three gods]

You have just explained and showed us the 3 gods, the only thing you have done is to put 1+1+1=1 !!!! In other ways 3=1 !!! Primary school kids know better! They usually say "it can't"!!!

Here is a simple example for you to understand this Godhead mystery, my friend. First of all, man was made in the image and likeness of God. So, if I were to give you Pendu as an example. You are one person. But to your wife, you function the office of husband. To your children, you are viewed under the office of father. To your own mother you present yourself in the office of son. Though you are viewed in these multiple offices, you are still the same Pendu --one being. That picture is an adumbration of what God is like because you are in the image and likeness of God. I hope this makes you aware that God manifests Himself just as you do in the natural. He manifests Himself as a Healer, a Son, a Father, The Spirit, a Saviour, Seven Spirits of God, Almighty God, Jesus, Christ, Jehovah, etc --just exactly like what Pendu manifests himself in different capacities. If this picture does not make Pendu multiple persons, why would one expect God to deviate from His Word by breaking the TYPES and SHADOWS found in the scripture through becoming 3 distinct persons making one person? Pendu is not poly-persons making Pendu, so why would God be any different if Pendu is the exact image and likeness of Him? If you want scripture for it, here:

1Cor.15:[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cor.2:[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

These scriptures tell you Pendu (a natural man) that you shadow/type the spiritual --in this case, the Spirit of God, since scripture says you were made in the image and likeness of This Spirit called God. All this is if you are one of His!

I have gone to great lengths to make you see this picture, but its all your choice to take it.

Pendu, on 01 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Would it matter to you so much if the Son were lesser than the Father and the Holy Spirit?And Jesus prayed to the Father.

It would to you because you just told us above that they are equal. So if the son is lesser, your equality theory will fall down to pieces.

[Pendu]

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

The use of the word "Undisputably" usually works to the gullible. It does not work to the enlightened people! No where in the above scripture does it suggest that the "ONE" is the Father. Its your own assumption!

I am making no assumption. And there is no gulibility about it. It is the Father that sit on the throne.

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

To make matters worse, if your 3 persons do exist, that would mean the other two can not sit on that throne --possibly to you they sit on the side of the throne! I hope you can see the absurdity I was talking about.

Do scriptures not say the Son sits on the right hand of the Father.? You also think the scriptures are absurd, isn’t it?

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Imagine? This "midst of the throne" is where you have just told us that the Father is sitting as per the scripture you have given above. Now it looks like there is the lamb on that same throne. No wonder some people end up saying "christians" are a cofused bunch!
So, this lamb said this when he was standing on the throne, where the father was sitting? Mashura chaiwo aya!

You do not even know your bible. Read the first chapter of Revelation without rushing and you will know whether the Lamb said those words while standing on  the throne or not. Clear, you  have never read the Book of Revelations  at all or your mind is just biased towards certain conclusions

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

On top of that the lamb claims to be "the Almighty"! And then at the bottom of my message here, you are going to tell us that the father is the Almighty being worshiped by the elders!

Who do you thinks the elders are worshipping?

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

What makes you say they referred to the father? This is another assumption, of which you do not have scripture to supoort it. For instance, the father is sitting on the throne where the son is standing. So these elders are facing 2 on that throne, what makes you think they are talking to the father?

There are no assumptions there. So  who do you think  sits on the throne.

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

And by the way, where is the 3rd one of this trinity?

Ndokunonzi kubika mbodza uku! I wonder how many gods you see from the following two scriptures:

Revelation 3:l, "These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God , and the seven stars."

Revelation 4:5, "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices; and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven Spirits of God." "

It is you that can not see that that it is one God. You think since there are seven Spirits of God, there are seven gods. The seven Spirits of God are actually One Spirit.

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

You have just explained and showed us the 3 gods, the only thing you have done is to put 1+1+1=1 !!!! In other ways 3=1 !!! Primary school kids know better! They usually say "it can't"!!!

”A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one.” Therefore according to Jesus, 1+1=2. In other words 2=1!!!  And Temba will say: "Primary school kids know better! They usually say "it can't"!!!"

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Here is a simple example for you to understand this Godhead mystery, my friend. First of all, man was made in the image and likeness of God. So, if I were to give you Pendu as an example. You are one person. But to your wife, you function the office of husband. To your children, you are viewed under the office of father. To your own mother you present yourself in the office of son. Though you are viewed in these multiple offices, you are still the same Pendu --one being.

I do not occupy any office as you suggest..  I am a father to my children and this is not an office either to me or to them. I  am a real father to them. A real husband to my wife, not a ‘husband office’ or ‘office husband’ as you want to suggest. A real son to my mother, not an ‘office’ son or son 'office to my mother.
And Jesus is a real Son to the Father, and the Father a real Father to the Son.  Jesus is the WORD of the Father. And this WORD became flesh and a being

temba, on 02 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

I have gone to great lengths to make you see this picture, but its all your choice to take it.

I do not take choices, I take the revealed word of God as revealed in the scriptures.

[temba]

Those reading these exchanges must have got something meaningful from it. I will rest my case here.

The only other thing I might add is that God is a Spirit, so He has no left nor right hand. So for those who take the scripture about Jesus sitting on the right hand of God need to check what that phrase really mean in the scripture. A good starting place would be:

Exod.15:[6] Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
[12] Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

[Diaspora hazvisi]

Temba and your crew facinate me about this term "office". The example you give of a husband being father, a son and a husband is not for real and absurd to be honest. When does a man ever say "the son sent  me" or "I go to the husband" when referring to himself. Jesus clearly would use the term "I" first person. He also referred to my father, who would say my father to himself???? Honestly. My father sent me, I go to the father, the will of my father is, not my will but your will. Yes primary school kids will tell you kuti it can't but remember they are primary school kids, secondary school kids will not use that term

[temba]

Diaspora hazvisi, on 02 March 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Temba and your crew facinate me about this term "office". The example you give of a husband being father, a son and a husband is not for real and absurd to be honest. When does a man ever say "the son sent  me" or "I go to the husband" when referring to himself. Jesus clearly would use the term "I" first person. He also referred to my father, who would say my father to himself???? Honestly. My father sent me, I go to the father, the will of my father is, not my will but your will. Yes primary school kids will tell you kuti it can't but remember they are primary school kids, secondary school kids will not use that term

Zvakanakai vaDiaspora! Its difficult for some kids in a class to grasp basic explanation, no matter how much pictorial its presented! But when it comes to spiritual things, it is a combination of that plus resistance to move in the Light as He is in the Light!

What seems to allude you and others is that I have given a pictorial shadow of a natural and finite man typing an Eternal Being who presents Himself in different dispensational claims which I depicted as "offices". If the word "office" seems to trip you guys, why not replace it with "capacity"? A husband I gave as an example is a finite man, in other words, with a time-limited lifespan. But, what he shadows/types is an Eternal Being Who is not limited by time. His self-presentation is not only concurrent as you seem to be taking it, He can be otherwise also --a feat that our finite husband cannot undertake. It is dispensational, in other words, has time allotments for particular goals. The Saviour capacity is only manifested to save the lost. The Healer capacity is manifested to the sick, etc. The 3 dispensational claims of Father, Son and Holy Ghost were then "poured" in the Flesh Man Jesus as from His baptism. No wonder He said when one saw Him, one would have seen the Father.

Without even using a man like Pendu as an example, God Himself presented as a Pillar of Fire, as a Cloud by day and as a Star by night to the Hebrews. That does not make Him THREE persons! Its just the way He presented Himself at a particular and different juncture. Its like what movie actors do --they can assume a villain character at one time, and that of a hero at other times --but still being the same person.

As for your question:
When does a man ever say "the son sent me" or "I go to the husband" when referring to himself. Jesus clearly would use the term "I" first person. He also referred to my father, who would say my father to himself????

Actually, a man does say these words without uttering them out like that. The only thing that makes it seem absurd is that the person we are talking about cannot be omnipresent. If he was, these statements would be very appropriate to say. The capacity of husband can "enmorphe" itself into the capacity of son when one visits their mother. If that sonship capacity were to be asked how it came to be at mother's home, it could easily say the father capacity allowed the sonship capacity to take over and thus visit mom!

Remember that all this is in line with the following scripture:

Matt.13:[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If it were plain as you guys would like it to be, everyone would believe it! Even today's pharisees!!!!

[polymath]

"Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."



"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

[temba]

polymath, on 03 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

"Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again."



"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

I think you need to add this as well:

John.14:[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

As can be seen here, Jesus is telling them that He is the Comforter! His leaving will make Him come back in the Spirit form --the Comforter. That Spirit presented Himself as a blinding Light to Paul. He also divided Himself amongst the 120 in the upper room.

[Pendu]

temba, on 03 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I think you need to add this as well:

John.14:[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

What was it that the world could not receive? It is Spirit of truth, who is also the Holy Spirit. Why couldn't they receive him? Because they could not see him? Did the Jews not see Jesus? They sure did see Jesus. So who is this one that the Jews did not see yet the disciples did see. Let the verses speak:

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art thatChrist, the Son of the living God.

Sure, when the disciples saw Jsus they saw and accepted him as Christ. What did the Jews see when the looked at Jesus? Let the verses speak:
[color="#00BFFF"]Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

So the Jews saw Jesus the carpenter and not the Christ. Christ walked and ate with the disciples And they knew him. Jesus says 'he shall be in you’.  Who is going to be in them? It is the Spirit which dwelt in  Christ.  Will Jesus physically be in the disciples? Obviously NO. It is the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit which will come to them. this same Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ.

temba, on 03 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.]

Who is this that will come “to you”? It is the Spirit of Christ. Where will Jesus be?

[color="#00BFFF"]Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God

So Stephen was fillied with the Holy Ghost and saw Jesus in heaven together with his Father, him standing on his right hand.

temba, on 03 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

As can be seen here, Jesus is telling them that He is the Comforter! His leaving will make Him come back in the Spirit form --the Comforter. That Spirit presented Himself as a blinding Light to Paul. He also divided Himself amongst the 120 in the upper room.

Sure the Light of the Spirit blinded Paul.

And from what Stephen testified above, we saw Jesus standing in heaven on the right hand of God his Father, and he was filled with the Holy Ghost(the Comforter) here on earth. So the Comforter Jesus talked about is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ. It is him that is with us today. And whoever has the Spirit of Christ has Christ. And whoever has Christ has the Father. And Christ is sitted in Heaven at the right hand of God.

[temba]

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

What was it that the world could not receive? It is Spirit of truth, who is also the Holy Spirit.

I think this is crazy talk! You very well know that when Jesus was on earth, the Spirit was not released! So how can you tell people that the Spirit dwelt with them? It was Jesus Who dwelt with them --period! If you did not know, no one has ever seen the Spirit. What they saw was Jesus the Flesh Man. He was the One that the world (unbelievers) could not receive.

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Why couldn't they receive him? Because they could not see him? Did the Jews not see Jesus? They sure did see Jesus.

They saw Him and denied Him. That's why they gave Him up for crucifixion.

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

So who is this one that the Jews did not see yet the disciples did see. Let the verses speak: John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art thatChrist, the Son of the living God.
Sure, when the disciples saw Jsus they saw and accepted him as Christ. What did the Jews see when the looked at Jesus? Let the verses speak:
Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

So the Jews saw Jesus the carpenter and not the Christ. Christ walked and ate with the disciples And they knew him.

Now you are talking sense! As you can see its Jesus through and through. No mention of the Spirit because it was not given yet. It required the going away of Jesus for the Spirit to come. Why? Because He had to come back in the form/capacity of the Spirit. So simple to understand --of course REVELATION is needed!

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Jesus says 'he shall be in you’.  Who is going to be in them? It is the Spirit which dwelt in  Christ.  Will Jesus physically be in the disciples? Obviously NO. It is the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit which will come to them. this same Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ.

Exactly!! This is what I have been telling you all this time. Re-read what you have written here and see what you are really saying. You have said the correct thing here. Your only problem is you want that Spirit of Jesus to be a different entity from the Man Jesus Himself! Somehow you are so stuck to the Material (the Flesh of Jesus) that you cannot accept His Spirit (Holy Spirit) to be the same Jesus that was in the Flesh! Just read this Pendu and pray about it to get revelation:

1John.4:[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The only Person of deity that they
--1) Knew
--2) dwelt with
was Jesus Christ. None else! So, if they knew Him and lived with Him, it can only be Himself he is talking about. So simple. Not difficult at all to understand! The thing is He is going to come back in a different capacity --no more Flesh! The only flesh that will manifest Him, this time, is that of the likes of the tembas and Pendus in the Church. I hope by including you in my explanation, some still small bell will ring in your soul for you to scream --Eureka!!

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

It is the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit which will come to them. this same Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ.

Imagine, this statement is coming from the same man who is telling us that Jesus and the Holly Spirit are separate persons!

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Who is this that will come “to you”? It is the Spirit of Christ. Where will Jesus be?

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God

So Stephen was fillied with the Holy Ghost and saw Jesus in heaven together with his Father, him standing on his right hand.

Watangazve kuzvipiringisha! You need to re-read what you write! You try to clutch on straws by looking for some other scripture whilst Jesus Himself is telling you and everyone else that "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (1 John 4:18). I wonder whether you do really know what the right hand of God means? Research it my friend. As a help, I will give you a hint that God has no right nor left hand because He is a Spirit! Go back to Moses' story and see what the right hand of God was all about when the Hebrews were coming out of Egypt.

Pendu, on 04 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Sure the Light of the Spirit blinded Paul.

And from what Stephen testified above, we saw Jesus standing in heaven on the right hand of God his Father, and he was filled with the Holy Ghost(the Comforter) here on earth. So the Comforter Jesus talked about is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ. It is him that is with us today. And whoever has the Spirit of Christ has Christ. And whoever has Christ has the Father. And Christ is sitted in Heaven at the right hand of God.

You mix things to the extend of confusion! God is a Spirit. He has no right hand. It is a figure of speech that was even used when the children of Israel were coming out of Egypt. It is more to do with the power of God. Think man!!!

[Will B. Free]

God never intended His message to be so complex and the subject of scholarly debates.
How do you explain this knuna mbuya vekuruzevha?

[polymath]

Its so simple even demons believe there is one God but Christians struggle to identify their God. Isaiah 1:3



James 2: 19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Mark 12: 19

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
.
.
.

32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
.
.
.

34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

[temba]

Ruwi Vhitori, on 04 March 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

God never intended His message to be so complex and the subject of scholarly debates.
How do you explain this knuna mbuya vekuruzevha?

You do not need to, my friend! The following scripture covers her:

Rom.2:[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

And on top of that, its not the fleshly mbuya that is meant to catch it. Its the soul in that body, and that soul is not based on intellect. Its based on faith and being the Seed of God by predestination as Paul tells us here:

Rom.8:[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph.1:[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

And whenever that soul comes across the Truth, even if the fleshly intellect does not catch it, the soul will (from nowhere) shout "Amen!". Even ambuya herself will (surprised) cover her mouth saying, "what have I just said?".

Here is another scripture that shows why ambuya will say amen even to things that she cannot understand panyama:

Gal.4:[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

If you look carefully in the sequence in that scripture, first one HAS to be a son (or daughter in the case of ambuya) for God to send His Spirit to them. What a sure proof of predestination on our beloved ambuyas and sekurus! Amen!!

Its not that God has to send the Spirit for one to be a son or daughter! One has to be a daughter first, by predestination, then God will send the Spirit. Even in her unlearned condition, she will receive It! If she is a daughter of God, come what may, she will receive that blessed Saviour. I have witnessed so many unlearned sekurus and mbuyas miraculously shouting hallelujah to the preaching of the serpent seed sermon! Amen.

[Pendu]

temba, on 04 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I think this is crazy talk! You very well know that when Jesus was on earth, the Spirit was not released! So how can you tell people that the Spirit dwelt with them? It was Jesus Who dwelt with them --period! If you did not know, no one has ever seen the Spirit. What they saw was Jesus the Flesh Man. He was the One that the world (unbelievers) could not receive.

The best way forward is to leave you with your godless ambitious thinking and move ahead. Read this verse we are talking about then read your comment:
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus says the 'world seeth him not'. Do you think the Jews did not see Jesus?

[Gab]

Well! Well! Explaining what we don't know and never seen. Semantics can be good theological gymnastics. Will we come to a point we accept that God is God? His ways are not our ways. We can never fully understand him. The bible testifies to the fact that no one at any one time fully understood God, fully grasped God's ways and fully unraveled God's nature. Even in the book of revelations we still see that not all was revealed to us. However, we never accept the complexity of God. We are geniuses of geniuses in our eyes and without the slightest hesitation we describe God in so intricate details like the back of our hands.

[temba]

Pendu, on 05 March 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

The best way forward is to leave you with your godless ambitious thinking and move ahead. Read this verse we are talking about then read your comment:
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus says the 'world seeth him not'. Do you think the Jews did not see Jesus?

The answer to your question is yes!

Whats confusing you there is the fact that you are taking 'world seeth him not' literally. On top of that, this particular phrase is what you are dwelling on as if that makes the whole sentence. Why don't you address "for he dwelleth with you" along the same way you are taking that phrase. If you did that, you would see that your thought line is flawed! If you take this properly, you will see it in the correct line. Here is a portion of that passage:

John 14:[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

What you should ask yourself is "how did the Spirit of Truth dwell with them", esp. with the knowledge that the Spirit was not yet given. So obvious, Pendu. This is Jesus telling them that "I will come to you". It does not say the Spirit will come to you --but "I" --personal pronoun!! On top of that, He even says " Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also". Try and use the same line of thinking that you are using above on this verse 19 and see. You will see that  the whole concept would become muddled up.

You have to also understand that "SEEING" can be that of the natural senses. But it can also be that of conceptual understanding of something, like we normally say "I see" meaning comprehension of a particular concept. In other words, there is:
--natural eye "seeing"
--faith "seeing"