32 replies to this topic

[Afritude.]

Is anyone able to help me with this?

Ok, lets start here. God laboured for six days and nights and created us and everything else in the world - or so the Bible writers claim.

Then for 4000 or so years after he first fashioned Adam and Eve from a handful of dust or mud (take your pick) he laid down law after bloody and cruel law for his creation. He was particularly stern with his punishments which were almost always capital in nature (remember the time when he met Moses at the hotel and tried to murder him for not circumsizing his son?) and yet never once did he mention hell during his round table discussions with Moses and company.

Even when he was ordering Moses to arrange the slaughtering of 3000 of his "chosen" people for dancing about and singing the praises of a different God (a young cow apparently) never once did he mention Hell or brimstone. In the old tetament it would seem that God concentrated mainly on murdering people who displeased him and left it at that.

So where did Jesus get this idea of eternal torment and damnation? He never actually tells us where hell is and why does his vision of this strange place sound suspiciouly like the place described by the demented author of the book of Daniel.... you know... the place where the furnace flames where seven times hotter than any other furnace known to man?

Or could it be that Jesus being literate may have copied the idea from the now "late" Roman or Greek religions i.e the concept of Hades

Is anyone able to explain this to me.... and can anyone explain why the church (at least the Anglican one) eventually decided that belief in hell was no longer necessary to a christian.

[nabu]

Afritude., on 25 November 2010 - 10:27 PM, said:

Is anyone able to help me with this?

Ok, lets start here. God laboured for six days and nights and created us and everything else in the world - or so the Bible writers claim.

Then for 4000 or so years after he first fashioned Adam and Eve from a handful of dust or mud (take your pick) he laid down law after bloody and cruel law for his creation. He was particularly stern with his punishments which were almost always capital in nature (remember the time when he met Moses at the hotel and tried to murder him for not circumsizing his son?) and yet never once did he mention hell during his round table discussions with Moses and company.

Even when he was ordering Moses to arrange the slaughtering of 3000 of his "chosen" people for dancing about and singing the praises of a different God (a young cow apparently) never once did he mention Hell or brimstone. In the old tetament it would seem that God concentrated mainly on murdering people who displeased him and left it at that.

So where did Jesus get this idea of eternal torment and damnation? He never actually tells us where hell is and why does his vision of this strange place sound suspiciouly like the place described by the demented author of the book of Daniel.... you know... the place where the furnace flames where seven times hotter than any other furnace known to man?

Or could it be that Jesus being literate may have copied the idea from the now "late" Roman or Greek religions i.e the concept of Hades

Is anyone able to explain this to me.... and can anyone explain why the church (at least the Anglican one) eventually decided that belief in hell was no longer necessary to a christian.

I feel like the nerd at the front of the class who always has his hand up (sorry Afritude)...

The Old Testament speaks of ANNIHILATION, not everlasting torture in a Hell. Again and again and again (e.g. Deuteronomy 29:20 Psalm 1:4-6 Proverbs 24:20) Even the New Testament confuses itself and says the same thing! (e.g. 2 Corinthians 2:15 Philippians 3:18-19 Romans 6:23)

The traditional concept of Hell does NOT come from the Hebrew scriptures.  It is a pagan myth adopted (stolen!) as Christian doctrine in the third century by church fathers.  Yet, then as now, innocent people are taught the traditional concept of Hell by trusted authority figures.  That trust deters questions, so for hundreds of years the myth has perpetuated.  The KJV and other translations have also perpetuated the myth by less than the most accurate translation of the word Hell.

Poor confused Christians. As much as the idea of a George Bush burning in eternity makes me not unhappy...it's all a load of old cock like most what they believe

[Afritude.]

I agree Nabu. I have always thought that the Christian idea of hell was a phony and plagiarised one. Because the book of Daniel and its equally zany cousin revelations were written long after Jesus got nailed I could not blame him for copying the same kind of descriptions found in those books but I am almost certain taht he borrowed this nonsense from preceding Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions.

And to think we still have people who believe in this rubbish.

[nabu]

Afritude., on 27 November 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

I agree Nabu. I have always thought that the Christian idea of hell was a phony and plagiarised one. Because the book of Daniel and its equally zany cousin revelations were written long after Jesus got nailed I could not blame him for copying the same kind of descriptions found in those books but I am almost certain taht he borrowed this nonsense from preceding Greek, Roman and Egyptian religions.

And to think we still have people who believe in this rubbish.

What puzzles me is how the very Jewish Jesus came up with the idea? His book was the Torah and he never travelled outside Roman Judea or knew aboout the greater Roman world (unlike Paul). Jesus must have got the idea from the pagan Hades, but I can't find much research on this. Interesting, though.

[Neter]

Religious don’t know where hell is, or if such a place really exists. They can’t even decide what hell is. Which one is it? Is it the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) or the pit (Revelation 11:7) or is it a place where you will be given oozing pus to drink like the Koran describes (Koran 14:16), or a place where you will be roasted (Koran 17:18), or a prison (Koran 17:8)? Also, how did the pit get there? How did a big place of fire get beneath us? Did God create it down there? Why is it that scientists haven’t discovered it yet being they have dug holes straight down to the center of the Earth? Why is it that you can’t find hell if it really is a place that exists? Scientists have listened to the ground, they have all kinds of advanced technical equipment with computers. Have they heard crackling fires? No!!! Why? Because hell is a state of mind. It is what you make it. It exists within you, for each one will pattern his or her hell according to what he believes hell is. They don’t hear anybody down there screaming and hollering or any torturing. So what makes you believe that there is some place “down there” that you will go if you are a sinner where there is fire and demons? The Bible? Let’s be for real! There is nothing in the Bible that has been proven to be facts yet. You can’t even prove that the characters in your Bible really exists, let alone a place called hell! The hell that your Preachers, Teachers, Pastors, Rabbis, Imaams, and Sheiks preach to you about is another trick to keep you trapped under religion.

[Gab]

because there is no Jesus Christ in the OT. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[generaldexter]

Deut.32
1. [22] For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sam.22
1. [6] The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job.11
1. [8] It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job.26
1. [6] Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Pss.9
1. [17] The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Pss.16
1. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Pss.18
1. [5] The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Pss.55
1. [15] Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Pss.86
1. [13] For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Pss.116
1. [3] The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Pss.139
1. [8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov.5
1. [5] Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov.7
1. [27] Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov.9
1. [18] But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov.15
1. [11] Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
2. [24] The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov.23
1. [14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov.27
1. [20] Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa.5
1. [14] Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa.14
1. [9] Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
2. [15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa.28
1. [15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
2. [18] And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa.57
1. [9] And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek.31
1. [16] I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
2. [17] They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezek.32
1. [21] The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
2. [27] And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos.9
1. [2] Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah.2
1. [2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab.2
1. [5] Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
________________________________________

[polymath]

Gab, on 03 March 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

because there is no Jesus Christ in the OT.

Really? What blatant lies of the devil.

[Diaspora hazvisi]

I don't know how much yu Actually read the bible but to say there is no hell in the OT is not only misinformed and misguided but callous and deluded. At least try to google the question and yu will find the answers to a lot of questions rather than expose you ignorance in public while trying to appear learned. Who gave you that idea there is no hell in OT. Do not be deceived mr hell is expanding and the pompous and their glory and multitude will end there  (read Isaiah 5)

[temba]

generaldexter, on 07 March 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Deut.32
1. [22] For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sam.22
1. [6] The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job.11
1. [8] It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job.26
1. [6] Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Pss.9
1. [17] The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Pss.16
1. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Pss.18
1. [5] The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Pss.55
1. [15] Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Pss.86
1. [13] For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Pss.116
1. [3] The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Pss.139
1. [8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov.5
1. [5] Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov.7
1. [27] Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov.9
1. [18] But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov.15
1. [11] Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
2. [24] The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov.23
1. [14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov.27
1. [20] Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa.5
1. [14] Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa.14
1. [9] Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
2. [15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa.28
1. [15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
2. [18] And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa.57
1. [9] And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek.31
1. [16] I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
2. [17] They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezek.32
1. [21] The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
2. [27] And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos.9
1. [2] Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah.2
1. [2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab.2
1. [5] Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
________________________________________

AMEN.

[Gab]

polymath, on 08 March 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Really? What blatant lies of the devil.

Really? A Jesus Christ in OT? A messiah in OT? Maybe I read a different bible. Maybe in theology Jesus Christ is in OT.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. That son came into the world as Jesus Christ in the new testament when Mary released from her womb that (the Messiah) which God had put. And that son Jesus Christ hang on the cross on Calvary in the new testament. Jesus Christ is the redemptive lamp, the messiah in the new testament that the prophets in the OT talked about and wondered how a virgin would gave birth and wanted to see. Redemption was accomplished on the cross at Calvary by Jesus Christ not in the OT. Yes, there were shadows of Jesus Christ in the OT. However, the real thing materialized in the new testament as the lamp of God that taketh away sin. [Unless, for controversy sake or theology, we say that the new testament began at "last super" when Jesus Christ revealed that he was the redemptive lamb and introduced how the new Passover was to be observed, or that the new testament only began after Jesus Christ was crucified. Then Jesus Christ was in the "OT". However, if we take the OT as we normally take it as (before everything in the book of Matthew), Jesus Christ lived in the new testament. Which is what I took for granted in my above contribution.].

[temba]

Like I always try to explain to this man. That Jesus Christ is the Living Word in every age. To him, Jesus is just the flesh Man of Calvary. He is so engulfed in this error of denominationalism! Trinitarianism yakabaya ikatyokera! To him Jesus was not in the Old Testament! He has no concept of what scripture really entails. He ignores even Paul, who wrote it this way:

1Cor.10:[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Heb.13:[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[Gab]

temba, on 09 March 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Like I always try to explain to this man. That Jesus Christ is the Living Word in every age. To him, Jesus is just the flesh Man of Calvary. He is so engulfed in this error of denominationalism! Trinitarianism yakabaya ikatyokera! To him Jesus was not in the Old Testament! He has no concept of what scripture really entails. He ignores even Paul, who wrote it this way:

1Cor.10:[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Heb.13:[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exactly what I mentioned in parenthesis. The shadows that you usually talk about.

[temba]

Gab, on 09 March 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Exactly what I mentioned in parenthesis. The shadows that you usually talk about.

Hebrews 13:8 is not shadows. Its reality!

[Gab]

temba, on 09 March 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Hebrews 13:8 is not shadows. Its reality!

It has nothing to do with the shadows of Jesus Christ in the OT. The real Jesus Christ came in the fullness of time [Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:,]. I thought U know what U talk about when U talk of shadows in the OT [That's the danger of preaching other people's sermon without understanding it.]

[temba]

And you preach your own sermon that you have no clue at all!! You do not have the reality that you preach someone's sermon unknowingly. You are a denominational person who has to tow the line of your church! But this must be news to you of course.

For your own information, the fullness just means all that was called God became sacrificial flesh. But before that It was something else. It was the Pillar of fire to Moses. It was a Man to Adam, Abraham and Jacob.  It was Blinding Light to Paul. All this was still the same fullness, but in different capacities for different purposes. This the Truth that one gets when one preaches a message from a vindicated prophet, not traditional line-towing denominational dogma!

[Gab]

temba, on 10 March 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

And you preach your own sermon that you have no clue at all!! You do not have the reality that you preach someone's sermon unknowingly. You are a denominational person who has to tow the line of your church! But this must be news to you of course.

Nayyyyy!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry hako. Try next time.



For your own information, the fullness just means all that was called God became sacrificial flesh.

Really? Its "in the fullness of time".   A phrase. Not a word "fullness". Now that you know its a phrase give us a better interpretation. Marasika brother! Makumuchira zvisizvo.


But before that It was something else.

Yes. Something else. Not Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ is what everyone in the know (walking in Spirit. Walking with God like Semeon and Anna in Luke 2)was waiting for. The something else are the shadows:

And here are the shadows. The something else:
It was the Pillar of fire to Moses. It was a Man to Adam, Abraham and Jacob.  It was Blinding Light to Paul.


All this was still the same fullness, but in different capacities for different purposes. Abuse of "fullness". The different capacities are the shadows.


This the Truth that one gets when one preaches a message from a vindicated prophet, not traditional line-towing denominational dogma! Yes the prophet was vindicated. Unfortunately, his followers are misguided and not vindicated. They have the word from a child of God but don't know what to do with it and when to apply it. See how they interpret "fullness" from "In the fullness of time". "Mukuzara kwenguva" kana kuti "nguva payakanga yakwana" ndizvo zvinoreva "In the fullness of time". I belong to Jesus Christ denomination kwetekwa BHURANAMU (WMB).                                          

[temba]

I think its better to live you alone in your trinitarian mood!

Just in case someone is serious about wanting to know the fulness I am talking about, here are the scriptures for it:

Eph.1:[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph.3:[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph.4:[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Col.1:[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col.2:[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Afritude.]

generaldexter, on 07 March 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

Deut.32
1. [22] For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2Sam.22
1. [6] The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job.11
1. [8] It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job.26
1. [6] Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Pss.9
1. [17] The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Pss.16
1. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Pss.18
1. [5] The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Pss.55
1. [15] Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Pss.86
1. [13] For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Pss.116
1. [3] The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Pss.139
1. [8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov.5
1. [5] Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov.7
1. [27] Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov.9
1. [18] But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov.15
1. [11] Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
2. [24] The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov.23
1. [14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov.27
1. [20] Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa.5
1. [14] Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa.14
1. [9] Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
2. [15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa.28
1. [15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
2. [18] And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa.57
1. [9] And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek.31
1. [16] I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
2. [17] They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezek.32
1. [21] The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
2. [27] And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos.9
1. [2] Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah.2
1. [2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Hab.2
1. [5] Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
________________________________________

Which "bible" are you quoting here? And when was it written? I hope you are not quoting a book that was cobbled together in 1999?

[nabu]

Shadows? Fullness of time? .......theological crap to avoid the question about where Jesus can be found in the OT.

Even a child would ask, if A SON OF GOD EXISTS, surely the OT would make it absolutely clear from GENESIS onwards. Read what the Jews wrote in their Creation Fable and tell me exactly where they mention this Son of God (Who is Actually God Himself! )who will come BACK! in the future to give us ANOTHER Testament which will cancel out God's Original EVERLASTING Testament.

That makes you Christians less intelligent than a 3 year old child. Which science tells us is the average intelligence of an ape.