69 replies to this topic

[Not coming back]

kwv., on 20 March 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I have come to the conclusion that the reason Africa is fukked - is because there are too many extremely stupid people calling the shots

There are stupid people in all countries, but it seems that in Zim (and Africa) "the lunatics are running the asylum"  

It is pointless trying to reason rationally with people who can't even understand what the problem is, because their minds are far too primitive  

Your anger is IRRATIONAL and your insults UNFORTUNATE.

To you Africans are only clever when De Beers, Rhodies and Boer settlers, the Cranswicks, and all your kith and kin are exploiting Africa and its resources unchecked.

That era is GONE.

Get used to that. The only African you will ever fvck and abuse now is your unfortunate wife.

Proud Black Africans like myself tell you to go to hell.

Icho.

[kwv.]

Professor GBH, on 20 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Your anger is IRRATIONAL and your insults UNFORTUNATE.

To you Africans are only clever when De Beers, Rhodies and Boer settlers, the Cranswicks, and all your kith and kin are exploiting Africa and its resources unchecked.

That era is GONE.

Get used to that. The only African you will ever fvck and abuse now is your unfortunate wife.

Proud Black Africans like myself tell you to go to hell.

Icho.

Fukkoff itchy child!  

Poor Spoxy

You have your knickers in a knot again, Spox!

[kwv.]

Here we go again!  

Mouths wide open and brains in neutral. Go for a piss, take a deep breath - then read and understand this. After that, rational comment is welcome.

100% - of nothing

Politicians and others in power use the lack of knowledge about money and finance in the general public to twist the truth or to tell outright but plausible sounding lies, for their own benefit. These “sweet words” sound so good but are nothing but a pack of falsehoods, lies and half-truths. This happens in all countries, but Zimbabwe is particularly vulnerable because it has a predatory and greedy elite who will do anything to enrich themselves at the expense of the people and the country.

One of the most deceiving lies that has been going around for some time involves the ownership of businesses. There are people who want to confuse you in order to enrich themselves at your cost, and the country’s cost without doing a stroke of work.
To explain what I mean I will have to give a worked-out example, although it is an imaginary company. Let us first consider an agricultural business growing something like cotton.

Let us say that the turnover of the company is $100 million a year
Now let us say the profit is $10 million or 10%. This is a reasonable average figure.
Let us also say that the tax on the profit is 40%, which is also reasonable to assume.
So, the government gets $4 million out of a turnover of $100 million

Now the shouting starts, “Where has all the money gone?” And howcome “we” only get 4%? “We” need to take over this company so that we get all the money!

But if you actually understand how business works the picture is totally different. You have been lied to and deceived. Here are the figures for the above hypothetical company:

$100 million total turnover of which $10 million is profit
$4 million in tax to govt
$6 million in profit to owners.
$90 million left over. What happens to this?
Well, here is a split:
$10 million in imports for parts, fertiliser, machinery and so on. Of this amount of course the government gets the Import Duty of say $2.5 million, which adds to the $4 million above making it $6.5 million to the government (the nation)
We now have $80 million left. Here’s how it could be split:
$30 million for water, electricity, communications, rates etc.
$30 million for salaries and wages
$20 million for local purchases

Now we see that the owners make $6 million or 6% on their investment, which is in reality quite low.
The nation (govt) gets $6.5 million in taxes and duties
But what is always unsaid is that the $80 million spent locally goes directly into the economy, paying wages, salaries, local purchases and so on.
In a nutshell, the nation collects $86.5 million and whoever the owners are get $6 million.

Now let’s talk about “local ownership” which gets some of those people who have lied to you very excited indeed. Firstly, does it matter to the Mangers and workers who it is who actually owns the majority of the shares of any Company? Does it make any difference to their income or their daily lives? The answer is, no of course not. The reason for all the shouting is that a number of already very rich individuals want to get control of the business at next to no cost to themselves. What we have seen is that the business then usually winds down, assets are sold off and in the end all the Mangers and workers lose their jobs. And of course when the business closes the nation is now missing $86.5 million that was previously coming into the economy. Missing as well are all the taxes paid by those who used to work for the business.

Here is another thing you are deliberately not told. All Public companies have their shares on sale all the time on the Stock Exchange. Anyone can buy shares in a Public company whenever they want, if they have the money. But these people don’t tell you that, do they? Instead they lie to you, in order to make a quick profit, and usually destroy the business as well.

Let’s look even further into this matter. A certain criminal element demands to be given 51% of these businesses (for nothing). Why the magic figure of 51%? Well, that is because 51% gives you absolute control to do what you want; to sell assets, employ your brother in law, go on unnecessary and expensive foreign trips  – whatever. Let’s get this very clear, when these rich and powerful people shout about “local ownership” they specifically do NOT mean you, they are talking about THEMSELVES. You, the citizen, will just lose out, as will the nation. As usual.

Every developing country, and even developed countries cry out for investment in order to make their economies grow and in order to provide jobs for the people. No business means no jobs, as we have so cruelly seen over the past years. Whether local or foreign, every possible cent of investment is desperately needed. Now ask yourself, “Would I invest in a business if there was a good chance that after I had built it up, someone would demand 51% and take control from me so he could sell off the assets and destroy my business”? I don’t think you would.

All business and investment should be encouraged. This is best done by openness and honesty and strictly sticking to the rule of law. The purpose of government is to facilitate business, not frustrate it. Existing businesses must be given the opportunity to grow, and new business ventures should be encouraged. It is totally destructive to try and change the ownership of existing businesses by force or by legislation; it will just cost jobs and further impoverish the nation.

[Not coming back]

kwv., on 20 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Fukkoff itchy child!  

Poor Spoxy

You need anger management lessons sekuru TK, before you wee and soil your underpants.

  

Back to the topic, if ZimPlats fitted into your stupid low IQ example that you gave above, we would expect them to be packing their bags, wouldnt we?

But fact is they are not, and that shows your calculations are BULLSHIT.

[kwv.]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Professor GBH  . View it anyway?

LOL Spox - when you can't think of an answer - throw a tantrum instead

[Tunde]

Justice, on 20 March 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

This is an old trick of attacking the messenger instead of the message when the message is too strong.

The truth is that the MDC-T never intended (and still doesn't) to do any kind of indigenisaton program before Zanu-PF started implementing it.  They are just greedy corrupted azzholes buying $800 000 houses with donor money and double dipping.  They don't provide any advancement and empowerment for Zimbabwean people.  They are paid and work for outsiders.

Viva Zanu-PF!

I wouldn't mind any Zimbo who uses Donor money to buy personal property than someone who uses Zim Money meant for Zimbabweans. Spend $49K of CDF money with his wife.
Land and indigenisation policies are good, it is the way that we implement them that is wrong

[Great Mambo Chabvonga]

kwv., on 20 March 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I have come to the conclusion that the reason Africa is fukked - is because there are too many extremely stupid people calling the shots

There are stupid people in all countries, but it seems that in Zim (and Africa) "the lunatics are running the asylum"  

It is pointless trying to reason rationally with people who can't even understand what the problem is, because their minds are far too primitive  

And yet, here you are, 22 000 odd posts later, still trying to reason with these "primitive" darkies.

Give up already.

[Not coming back]

Great Mambo Chabvonga, on 20 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

And yet, here you are, 22 000 odd posts later, still trying to reason with these "primitive" darkies.

Give up already.

A 22 000-posts-strong mission from the Missionary Father Tokoloshe who has spent his entire life on a civilization mission to enlighten African natives.

[kwv.]

Great Mambo Chabvonga, on 20 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

And yet, here you are, 22 000 odd posts later, still trying to reason with these "primitive" darkies.

Give up already.

You have to keep trying, GMC  

And hope that one day the inmates won't be running the asylum. The people are there alright, but not in positions of influence where they should be.

I mean, can you imagine Spox contributing anything to the greater good of society?  

[Volcano]

Justice, on 20 March 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

This is an old trick of attacking the messenger instead of the message when the message is too strong.

The truth is that the MDC-T never intended (and still doesn't) to do any kind of indigenisaton program before Zanu-PF started implementing it.  They are just greedy corrupted azzholes buying $800 000 houses with donor money and double dipping.  They don't provide any advancement and empowerment for Zimbabwean people.  They are paid and work for outsiders.

Viva Zanu-PF!

My scepticism is based on history yebato rako.  Tell me, Justice, what happened to these grand schemes:

• War Victims Compensation Fund (Read Chidyausiku Commission Report)
• National Housing Scheme
• Willowvale Vehicle Scheme (Read Sandura Commission Report)
• The Land Reform Programme since independence
• The Constituency Development Fund (it is unravelling before us)
• BACOSSI
• The Farm Mechanization Scheme
• The current inputs programme (I hope u still remember what mai Mujuru said recently)
• etc etc

What gives me confidence that the indigenization programme will be any different?  I am not as excitable anymore.

[Justice]

Program like the mechanization, land reform, input support, etc actually helped a lot of people.  Not because some people, lets say, illegally resell the inputs, or failed in some ventures, that the program as a whole is wrong.  All banks and investing entities would close if it was the case.  Some level of failure is predictable in any kind of program from education (drop outs) to land reform passing by research program.  The government can't hand hold everybody in a society. The land reform as well as other programs like the indigenisation, mechanization, input support, are always about opportunities.  A lot of people actually benefited from them and their only limitation are government's budget.

Even in the USA a lot of enterprises failed and have gone bankrupt.  Many current successful enterprises owners actually went bankrupt with another enterprise project in the same sector and then started another.  Life is trial and error.  You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs and Rome wasn't built in one day.  

What is important is persisting in the right direction.  The way that promote local enterprises and empower Zimbabwean people.  From land to all industry.  Adjusting them to make them more efficient along the way.

Personally, I think the Indigenisation and Empowerment program is even more important than the land redistribution program.  Any future growth in the country will truly benefit Zimbabwean people. In term of money or actual development capacity/experience.  The indigenisation in the mining (and bank) sector will offer more financing possibilities for other local sectors.  The indigenisation and empowerment program is even more important than the land reform for me, because it's truly about setting the appropriate foundation for the local economy to built on.  

Somehow, when you analyse it, all countries in the world did that through various means.  Localisation/indigenisation regulations like Zimbabwe, Thailand, South Korea, India.   Or through communism like China, Russia which are also localization rules with more state prevalence.  Europe did it historically as they were the first one to industrialize.  For me the Indigenisation and Empowerment drive is about setting up the proper indigenous foundation to built on.

[ellim]

frankster, on 20 March 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

To Zimbabweans.

Obviously   But Mugabe and his cronies are all Zimbabwean - well Mugabe is half Malawian - if they got 100% of this would that make you happy?

There seems to be a balance between what foreign companies can bring in terms of skills, investment, capital and employment, as well as improving infrastructure and communities...and what the local populace should gain from their natural resources, whichever country you look at.

If a multinational brings in foreign workers, improves roads but pollutes the local area then that is not indigenisation working. China is especially bad in this respect but we all know they won't be targetted. If a company is employing 95% local including management, paying taxes, improving the community, offering free housing, then maybe MT is right that 30% is too much because it might chase away such decent investment.

I don't think anyone here is against indigenisation, and if that 51% was ONLY going to the local communities then tbh I'd probably be behind Kasukuwere on it.

[Volcano]

Justice, on 20 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Program like the mechanization, land reform, input support, etc actually helped a lot of people.  Not because some people, lets say, illegally resell the inputs, or failed in some ventures, that the program as a whole is wrong.  All banks and investing entities would close if it was the case.  Some level of failure is predictable in any kind of program from education (drop outs) to land reform passing by research program.  The government can't hand hold everybody in a society. The land reform as well as other programs like the indigenisation, mechanization, input support, are always about opportunities.  A lot of people actually benefited from them and their only limitation are government's budget.

Even in the USA a lot of enterprises failed and have gone bankrupt.  Many current successful enterprises owners actually went bankrupt with another enterprise project in the same sector and then started another.  Life is trial and error.  You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs and Rome wasn't built in one day.  

What is important is persisting in the right direction.  The way that promote local enterprises and empower Zimbabwean people.  From land to all industry.  Adjusting them to make them more efficient along the way.

Personally, I think the Indigenisation and Empowerment program is even more important than the land redistribution program.  Any future growth in the country will truly benefit Zimbabwean people. In term of money or actual development capacity/experience.  The indigenisation in the mining (and bank) sector will offer more financing possibilities for other local sectors.  The indigenisation and empowerment program is even more important than the land reform for me, because it's truly about setting the appropriate foundation for the local economy to built on.  

Somehow, when you analyse it, all countries in the world did that through various means.  Localisation/indigenisation regulations like Zimbabwe, Thailand, South Korea, India.   Or through communism like China, Russia which are also localization rules with more state prevalence.  Europe did it historically as they were the first one to industrialize.  For me the Indigenisation and Empowerment drive is about setting up the proper indigenous foundation to built on.

Dzakatamba nevana dzikatadza kudzorerwa

[Justice]

Volcano, on 20 March 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Dzakatamba nevana dzikatadza kudzorerwa

It's because you don't know how to read.  

You talk of mechanization or land reform as failure when actually thousands of people benefited and are now successful farmers.  You refuse to see the successes and improvements.  The idea is to grow into a developing nation with a solid indigenous industry not become one instantaneously which never happened in history.  Hence the importance of the current indigenisation drive to set up the proper foundation to grow from.

[Fakeclaim]

succuba, on 20 March 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

No it does not and well you know it..... where is the money coming from to buy half of ZimPlats?

I did not hear him answer that question, did you?

you were probably watching the wrong video. try watching the link at the top of this thread. the answer is there clear and simple.

[Fakeclaim]

succuba, on 20 March 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Do you seriously think that Zimplats will just hand over half of their company without payment?

Do you think Zimbabwe will be fooled into giving its resources away again. never again, the economy will be Zimbabwe controlled..we learnt our lesson.

[Fakeclaim]

Justice, on 20 March 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

It's because you don't know how to read.  

You talk of mechanization or land reform as failure when actually thousands of people benefited and are now successful farmers.  You refuse to see the successes and improvements.  The idea is to grow into a developing nation with a solid indigenous industry not become one instantaneously which never happened in history.  Hence the importance of the current indigenisation drive to set up the proper foundation to grow from.

facts will remain facts no matter what the likes of ZATO, scud, kwv, farisai etc say. their project is on its death bed, maybe thats what TB Joshua was trying to put across.

[succuba]

Fakeclaim, on 20 March 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Do you think Zimbabwe will be fooled into giving its resources away again. never again, the economy will be Zimbabwe controlled..we learnt our lesson.

That was not the question FakeBrain

[kwv.]

Our friend Injustice wrote the following. As usual it is full of emotion and fine sentiment - but let's see if it is anything more than empty words.

Justice, on 20 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Program like the mechanization, land reform, input support, etc actually helped a lot of people.  Not because some people, lets say, illegally resell the inputs, or failed in some ventures, that the program as a whole is wrong.  All banks and investing entities would close if it was the case.  Some level of failure is predictable in any kind of program from education (drop outs) to land reform passing by research program.  The government can't hand hold everybody in a society. The land reform as well as other programs like the indigenisation, mechanization, input support, are always about opportunities.  A lot of people actually benefited from them and their only limitation are government's budget.

OK - "a lot of people actually benefitted" you say. But at the end of the exercise, was agricultural output higher, or lower? Were more people employed, or less? Did the economy grow, or did it contract?

Quote

Even in the USA a lot of enterprises failed and have gone bankrupt.  Many current successful enterprises owners actually went bankrupt with another enterprise project in the same sector and then started another.  Life is trial and error.  You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs and Rome wasn't built in one day.

It is well known that few startup businesses survive, Injustice. But Zimbabwe had a going concern. Why destroy that? Why not let people learn on unused land? That was what had been suggested many times before  

Quote

What is important is persisting in the right direction.  The way that promote local enterprises and empower Zimbabwean people.  From land to all industry.  Adjusting them to make them more efficient along the way.

What angers me is the racism inherent in your statement. You mean only black Zimbabweans, which is racist. Yet you do not expect to be discriminated against in the country you live in (Denmark?)

Quote

Personally, I think the Indigenisation and Empowerment program is even more important than the land redistribution program.  Any future growth in the country will truly benefit Zimbabwean people. In term of money or actual development capacity/experience.  The indigenisation in the mining (and bank) sector will offer more financing possibilities for other local sectors.  The indigenisation and empowerment program is even more important than the land reform for me, because it's truly about setting the appropriate foundation for the local economy to built on.

No, Injustice - it won't. You are using fine-sounding words which may convince non-Zimbabweans, but we all know that 99.9% of the jobs are held by black Zimbos, from CEO on down to teaboy. You are desperately trying to justify theft, and that is not possible.
  

Quote

Somehow, when you analyse it, all countries in the world did that through various means.  Localisation/indigenisation regulations like Zimbabwe, Thailand, South Korea, India.   Or through communism like China, Russia which are also localization rules with more state prevalence.  Europe did it historically as they were the first one to industrialize.  For me the Indigenisation and Empowerment drive is about setting up the proper indigenous foundation to built on.

Injustice, to help local people is always good. But in order to grow the economy and provide more wealth for more people that is exactly what you have to do do - grow the economy. Stealing from any group because you don't like their race (Indian, Chinese, white, whatever) doesn't grow the economy.

Unlike you, I have always been a strong supporter of home-grown enerprises. What I have found tragic is the way that people like you have sabotaged pretty any and all commercial growth in Zimbabwe. I wish I thought that you believed in what you write. But I don't. I think that you know very well that you are pushing nonsense, and you are only doing it to grease your palms from those who seek to benefit from these lunatic and nationally-destructive fantasies.

[Squatter]

It still remains the same....

If you ZANU pricks want to play

bring your 370 million dollars

and pay!

There is nothing for nothing out there - no company will roll over and just hand over 51% of its shares for free.

dress itup anyway you want - but the p!g will always just be the good old p!g - in this case - a very dark one indeed!