21 replies to this topic

[nabu]

Those who have read the Bible know that the God of love hates many things. And Christmas trees are on his most hated list.

Here's what he has to say about them.

    Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest ... with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. Jeremiah 10:2-4

There are a couple other verses that sound like condemnations of Christmas trees, celebrations, fires, and roast beast. But, hey, it's the Bible. Who knows what the hell it means?

    The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. He ... chooseth a tree ... to prepare a graven image. Isaiah 40:19-20

    He heweth him down cedars ... among the trees of the forest ... yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread ... he maketh it a graven image ... he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire. Isaiah 44:14-16



Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire

[Cleopatra]

I hate them too!! Such a waste of money!

[zivo]

GOD HATES CHRISTMAS TREES?

I request, Nabu that you rephrase it. I dont believe God hates Christmas trees because there is no growing trees called Christmas trees. God hates Idolatry and I think that is something we cant deny, if that is what you meant by among other things.

[nabu]

zivo, on 19 December 2009 - 08:57 PM, said:

GOD HATES CHRISTMAS TREES?

I request, Nabu that you rephrase it. I dont believe God hates Christmas trees because there is no growing trees called Christmas trees. God hates Idolatry and I think that is something we cant deny, if that is what you meant by among other things.

But  zivo that would be like rephrasing what your Lord said…you would have to agree that Christmas trees are a borrowed Pagan idea, and here you have Jeremiah telling you clearly not to follow their ways by cutting down trees and adorning them. Which part of that are you having trouble with?

[Gab]

Wish you a happy christmas nabu! Hope in 2010 you will be born again nguva ichawanikwa.

[nabu]

Gab, on 21 December 2009 - 06:02 AM, said:

Wish you a happy christmas nabu! Hope in 2010 you will be born again nguva ichawanikwa.

Thanks Gab I hope you and your family have a good Stolen Pagan Festival as well. Perhaps in 2010 you may want to return Easter and all the other things you guys have stolen over the years.

[Cleopatra]

zivo, on 19 December 2009 - 08:57 PM, said:

GOD HATES CHRISTMAS TREES?

I request, Nabu that you rephrase it. I dont believe God hates Christmas trees because there is no growing trees called Christmas trees. God hates Idolatry and I think that is something we cant deny, if that is what you meant by among other things.

Rephrase it how Zivo, Nabu is right, God hates Xmas trees no matter how you rephrase it!!

[Cleopatra]

Nabu, that verse in Jeremiah describes the exact same thing we do to our own Christmas trees.A celebration to Mithra who was born on the 25th of December? Whoever started this Jesus Xmas birth should/will burn in hell!

[nabu]

Cleopatra, on 21 December 2009 - 08:15 PM, said:

Nabu, that verse in Jeremiah describes the exact same thing we do to our own Christmas trees.A celebration to Mithra who was born on the 25th of December? Whoever started this Jesus Xmas birth should/will burn in hell!

I think that's going too far Cleo, after all, name me one original idea that any religion can boast - you can find a precedent in almost all of them. The only one I can think of in Christianity is LOVE YOUR ENEMIES - but what's the use of it when the history of Christianity is anything but!

[Bwakapwaka]

Cleopatra, on 21 December 2009 - 08:15 PM, said:

Nabu, that verse in Jeremiah describes the exact same thing we do to our own Christmas trees.A celebration to Mithra who was born on the 25th of December? Whoever started this Jesus Xmas birth should/will burn in hell!

With all due respect to all of you, I think you should reread what we know about Christmas and refrain from emotional comments.

A Christmas tree is a collection of decorative items put together in a form of a tree. To say that God hates Christmas tree would be the same as saying that HE hates the very matter that HE created. Criminals use knives to kill people. Does God hate knives? I don't think so. I think what God hates is the misuse of the matter that He created, using the matter in a way that does not please Him.

As for Cleopatra's statement about burning in hell, I think we should be very cautious about pointing fingures at other people for what they started in good faith (most likely).

Oh, BTW Cleo, Julius Africanus came up with the December 25th date. So you want to judge him ???

[Cleopatra]

Bwakapwaka, on 22 December 2009 - 05:17 PM, said:

With all due respect to all of you, I think you should reread what we know about Christmas and refrain from emotional comments.

A Christmas tree is a collection of decorative items put together in a form of a tree. To say that God hates Christmas tree would be the same as saying that HE hates the very matter that HE created. Criminals use knives to kill people. Does God hate knives? I don't think so. I think what God hates is the misuse of the matter that He created, using the matter in a way that does not please Him.

As for Cleopatra's statement about burning in hell, I think we should be very cautious about pointing fingures at other people for what they started in good faith (most likely).

Oh, BTW Cleo, Julius Africanus came up with the December 25th date. So you want to judge him ???

Since it aint Jesus' birthday, why come up with a fake date? A wise man once said there was nothing new under the sun, it's before.

If God hates other religions, he definitely has a place reserved for those who celebrate pagan holidays, etc, right? While actually I cannot condemn a person to hell, I can rely on the laws set in stone to point out that one is gonna burn in hell, am I correct?

[Cleopatra]

nabu, on 22 December 2009 - 09:51 AM, said:

I think that's going too far Cleo, after all, name me one original idea that any religion can boast - you can find a precedent in almost all of them. The only one I can think of in Christianity is LOVE YOUR ENEMIES - but what's the use of it when the history of Christianity is anything but!

Its all been done before, just under a different name.

But seriously its not our differences that we should be afraid of, its our similarities and the explanations we try to come up with to do away with those similarities.

[Bwakapwaka]

Cleopatra, on 23 December 2009 - 08:30 AM, said:

Since it aint Jesus' birthday, why come up with a fake date? A wise man once said there was nothing new under the sun, it's before.

How do YOU know that it is NOT Jesus' birthday? While I strongly suspect it probably is not the day Christ was born, I cannot say with certainty that it is NOT. It has to be one of the 365 days right? The bottom line is that this date (December 25/ January 6) is symbolic for those CHristians who want to put aside one of the 365 days in the year and celebrate Jesus' birth. My understanding of the scriptures though, is that we ought to celebrate this greatest Gift of all, on a daily basis through everything that we do.

Quote

If God hates other religions, he definitely has a place reserved for those who celebrate pagan holidays, etc, right? While actually I cannot condemn a person to hell, I can rely on the laws set in stone to point out that one is gonna burn in hell, am I correct?

I am not aware of ANY christian who clebrates pagan holidays. Maybe you can enlighten us more on that. Unfortunately for me, I am not a judge on God's things, I will let Him do what pleases Him; all I have to do is to please Him, and I don't believe that pointing out other people's wrongs is what pleases Him. May I leave you with this piece of scripture (Romans 14:5-14) (NLT) ... it may clarify my line of thinking, and the way I believe God is revealing His word to me.


5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves.8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
  10 So why do you condemn another believer*? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.11 For the Scriptures say,

"'As surely as I live,' says the LORD,
'every knee will bend to me,
  and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.*'"

12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.
  14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

[Bwakapwaka]

nabu, on 19 December 2009 - 11:16 AM, said:

Those who have read the Bible know that the God of love hates many things. And Christmas trees are on his most hated list.

Here's what he has to say about them.

    Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest ... with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. Jeremiah 10:2-4

...

BTW, had forgotten to comment on Jeremiah 10. This verse is completely taken out of context. Most religious scholars (of which I am not) agree that the tree in question is a for the purpose of carving an idol for worship. Almost all recent translations use the word "chisel" to clarify the point that the tree that was cut was later "chiseled" into an adol for worship.

From your earlier posts, I know that you know that the Christmas tree only started in Europe many years after the prophet Jeremiah.

[Cleopatra]

Bwakapwaka, on 23 December 2009 - 02:44 PM, said:

BTW, had forgotten to comment on Jeremiah 10. This verse is completely taken out of context. Most religious scholars (of which I am not) agree that the tree in question is a for the purpose of carving an idol for worship. Almost all recent translations use the word "chisel" to clarify the point that the tree that was cut was later "chiseled" into an adol for worship.

From your earlier posts, I know that you know that the Christmas tree only started in Europe many years after the prophet Jeremiah.

Ever heard of the wood priests called the Druids? Do you know that they used to hand the mistletoe on their doors (look outside and tell me how many of these mistletoe hangings you see on your neighbors' doors)? They used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life. They used to place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits and they also practiced HUMAN SACRIFICE!

What about Saturnalia? Decorations of houses with greens and the exchanging of gifts, does that sound familiar? Well the Romans celebrated this winter festival.

And the Egyptians? Well, they also treasured evergreens and probably decorated their homes with them too.

My point is this Christmas celebration is no different from these celebrations that came long before it. The only things that changed was the name of the celebration and in whose honor the celebration was sfor; in this case Jesus' birth (which you know wasn't in the winter) Jesus' actual birthday is placed sometime in September. If it were that important to celebrate his birth, why choose that time of the year when pagans were celebrating their fests?

Yes St Boniface did live in an era way after Jeremiah was written, or for that matter these other pagan festivals were celebrated even his associating the fir to Christian faith leaves a lot to be desired, he cuts an Oak tree an up springs an evergreen and he associate it with christian faith. Imagine the irony in all that; the pagans had stamped their claim on evergreens already!!!!!

Now having said that, the only way you can justify the celebration of Christmas from my point of view is by quoting this Colossians verse " Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." Paul was onto something when he wrote this!

[Gab]

Shoko rakava nyama. Mwari ngaakudzwe! For God loved the world so much that He send his only beloved son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Only the wisemen from the east celebrated the birth of the new king-Jesus Christmas for they received revelation. So it is today, only the wisemen celebrated that the word become flesh-Jesu wakabarwa. It is not the day that is important to the sons of the kingdom but what is remembered for Jesus Christ said, "Do this in remembrance of me". Yes, we celebrate the coming for Jesus Christ to the world. If he had not come he would not have died on the cross.

[Bwakapwaka]

Cleopatra, on 23 December 2009 - 07:46 PM, said:

Ever heard of the wood priests called the Druids? Do you know that they used to hand the mistletoe on their doors (look outside and tell me how many of these mistletoe hangings you see on your neighbors' doors)? They used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life. They used to place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits and they also practiced HUMAN SACRIFICE!

What about Saturnalia? Decorations of houses with greens and the exchanging of gifts, does that sound familiar? Well the Romans celebrated this winter festival.

Apparently, Bible scholars do not agree with you. I am certain that you are well gifted to research, read and understand. Whe Aureleus started these celebrations, there is proof that Christmas was already a common celebration among Christians. I would like to encourage you to read about it in reputable literature like the encyclopedia Britannica.

I would side with early scholars like Augustine (St-if you are Roman CAtholic). Even if this was a pagan festival, we, the followers of Christ, have COMPLETELY taken over this day to glorify and honor Him, than glorify the devil. Today, I can say with certainty, over 90% of the people in the world know that Dec 25 (Jan 6) is the day Christians all over the world celebrate the birth of their Lord and saviour. An its bits tiny minority associates (if ever) it with anything else. I saw pics on TV the other day, of a few people (less than 10) celebrating winter solictice (Dec 21). That's a tiny minority indeed!

While some of you guys sit and do nothing, we, the children of God, will take this opportunity to celebrate and evangelise through the corners of the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord...and Christmas is a very good way of doing it.

Quote

And the Egyptians? Well, they also treasured evergreens and probably decorated their homes with them too.

My point is this Christmas celebration is no different from these celebrations that came long before it. The only things that changed was the name of the celebration and in whose honor the celebration was sfor; in this case Jesus' birth (which you know wasn't in the winter) Jesus' actual birthday is placed sometime in September. If it were that important to celebrate his birth, why choose that time of the year when pagans were celebrating their fests?

So? Again, if you research and read as widely as I believe you are capable of, you will come across abundantly rich literature that point to the fact that IT IS POSSIBLE that this day could have been in December. Very possible in fact, that scholars have pointed to evidence that during mild December winters, Sheppherds did, indeed tend to their focks outside the city gates. I wont dwell much on this either, because I know that you can read it for yourself. Go sit down and research more, and you will understand more.

All I can tell you at this time is that Christ's birthdate is not known with certainty; if God wanted us to know it, He would have revealed it to us. What is important is that He was born; He is Alive!!!

You ask "..why choose that time of the year when pagans were celebrating their fests?.." Why not? All days belong to God, don't they? Again, as I stated above, just like signal jammers, we have successfully "taken over" these so-called pagan days. Nobody talks about paganism anymore; they talk about Christ...do a survey in the streets if you want; nearly everyone will tell you that this is time Christian clebrate their Christ, not pagan clebrate thei "pagan "

Quote

Yes St Boniface did live in an era way after Jeremiah was written, or for that matter these other pagan festivals were celebrated even his associating the fir to Christian faith leaves a lot to be desired, he cuts an Oak tree an up springs an evergreen and he associate it with christian faith. Imagine the irony in all that; the pagans had stamped their claim on evergreens already!!!!!

Now having said that, the only way you can justify the celebration of Christmas from my point of view is by quoting this Colossians verse " Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." Paul was onto something when he wrote this!

You don't have to clebrate Christmas if you think God is telling you not to. Just do what is right, and you will be right with God. I believe celebrating Christmas (everyday for me, and with a full tummy on 25 Dec), evangelising (including using Christmas), is what is right for me, and is right with God. How do you evangelise my sister?

BTW, I am off to Boxing day sales tomorow (26th), and that is not against my understanding of scriptures either Sorry for the long response, but I have way too much to talk about. If you want, I have a number of very scholarly articles if you want to read...not emotional, senseless mumbo-jumbo.

[nabu]

Bwakapwaka, on 22 December 2009 - 05:17 PM, said:

With all due respect to all of you, I think you should reread what we know about Christmas and refrain from emotional comments.

A Christmas tree is a collection of decorative items put together in a form of a tree. To say that God hates Christmas tree would be the same as saying that HE hates the very matter that HE created. Criminals use knives to kill people. Does God hate knives? I don't think so. I think what God hates is the misuse of the matter that He created, using the matter in a way that does not please Him.

As for Cleopatra's statement about burning in hell, I think we should be very cautious about pointing fingures at other people for what they started in good faith (most likely).

Oh, BTW Cleo, Julius Africanus came up with the December 25th date. So you want to judge him ???

What are you on? According to your book, God hates a multitude of things, and if he is the creator of all that means he obviously is capable of hating the things he creates.

I suggest you take a course on Critical Thinking..at the very least it will help with the misfirings of your brain neurons.


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever." Woody Allen

[Cleopatra]

Bwakapwaka, on 25 December 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

Apparently, Bible scholars do not agree with you. I am certain that you are well gifted to research, read and understand. Whe Aureleus started these celebrations, there is proof that Christmas was already a common celebration among Christians. I would like to encourage you to read about it in reputable literature like the encyclopedia Britannica.

I would side with early scholars like Augustine (St-if you are Roman CAtholic). Even if this was a pagan festival, we, the followers of Christ, have COMPLETELY taken over this day to glorify and honor Him, than glorify the devil. Today, I can say with certainty, over 90% of the people in the world know that Dec 25 (Jan 6) is the day Christians all over the world celebrate the birth of their Lord and saviour. An its bits tiny minority associates (if ever) it with anything else. I saw pics on TV the other day, of a few people (less than 10) celebrating winter solictice (Dec 21). That's a tiny minority indeed!

While some of you guys sit and do nothing, we, the children of God, will take this opportunity to celebrate and evangelise through the corners of the earth, that Jesus Christ is Lord...and Christmas is a very good way of doing it.


So? Again, if you research and read as widely as I believe you are capable of, you will come across abundantly rich literature that point to the fact that IT IS POSSIBLE that this day could have been in December. Very possible in fact, that scholars have pointed to evidence that during mild December winters, Sheppherds did, indeed tend to their focks outside the city gates. I wont dwell much on this either, because I know that you can read it for yourself. Go sit down and research more, and you will understand more.

All I can tell you at this time is that Christ's birthdate is not known with certainty; if God wanted us to know it, He would have revealed it to us. What is important is that He was born; He is Alive!!!

You ask "..why choose that time of the year when pagans were celebrating their fests?.." Why not? All days belong to God, don't they? Again, as I stated above, just like signal jammers, we have successfully "taken over" these so-called pagan days. Nobody talks about paganism anymore; they talk about Christ...do a survey in the streets if you want; nearly everyone will tell you that this is time Christian clebrate their Christ, not pagan clebrate thei "pagan "


You don't have to clebrate Christmas if you think God is telling you not to. Just do what is right, and you will be right with God. I believe celebrating Christmas (everyday for me, and with a full tummy on 25 Dec), evangelising (including using Christmas), is what is right for me, and is right with God. How do you evangelise my sister?

BTW, I am off to Boxing day sales tomorow (26th), and that is not against my understanding of scriptures either Sorry for the long response, but I have way too much to talk about. If you want, I have a number of very scholarly articles if you want to read...not emotional, senseless mumbo-jumbo.

Bwakapaka, before there were Xmas celebrations among Xians, there were pagan celebrations that used the mistletoe which now adorns homes of so called Christians!

Now, I do hope you made a killing on the Boxing day sales....they could be against the Scriptures you know...LOL!!! gotcha!!!!

[Bwakapwaka]

Cleopatra, on 28 December 2009 - 11:08 PM, said:

Bwakapaka, before there were Xmas celebrations among Xians, there were pagan celebrations that used the mistletoe which now adorns homes of so called Christians!

Yes, I am aware of that. Like I said before, when I come across a topic of interest to me, I try to read as widely as I can about it. We all agree that the misletoe was created by God, and when He did, He "...saw it was good." If one uses the misletoe in ways that does not please God, then, they and only they are answerable to Him for their deeds. If you use the misletoe to glorify His Kingdom, I believe IMHO that God will be pleased.

Quote

Now, I do hope you made a killing on the Boxing day sales....they could be against the Scriptures you know...LOL!!! gotcha!!!!

I was trying to avoid going to line up in the freezing cold weather, and tried to purchase some items I had been saving for for the whole year. Unfortunately, the site crashed due to heavy use, and by the time it came back up (about 10 minutes later) the main item I wanted had been sold out. So I had to go and line up at the store on boxing day in freezing weather, and managed to save a few $, which I hope will find its way to God's Kingdom (directly or indirectly). Maybe, what could be against the Scriptures is exposing my body to the frigid cold. It was cold; the store was very kind though, they gave us heating packs (the type you put in your mittens and your winter boots)